For quite some time, there have been rumors that Thai Airways was in negotiations with both Airbus and Boeing over a new wide body aircraft order, with the focus being on the Airbus A350 or Boeing 787. It looks like Thai Airways is closer to making a decision, and that an order could be announced in the near future.
In this post:
Thai Airways could order up to 80 Boeing 787s
Reuters is reporting that Boeing is in advanced talks with Thai Airways to sell around 80 Boeing 787 Dreamliner jets to the Thai flag carrier. Nothing has been finalized yet, but an order could be announced in the coming weeks.
There aren’t yet details about which 787 variant Thai Airways may choose, when the planes may be delivered, or just how many of those 80 jets would be firm orders rather than options.
Thai Airways has been undergoing quite the transformation in recent years. The airline was struggling financially even before the pandemic, and then the pandemic only exacerbated the carrier’s issues. However, with the popularity of Thailand as a travel destination, the airline is finally trying to capitalize on travel demand in a more sustainable way.
Thai Airways’ fleet is currently all over the place
Historically Thai Airways’ fleet has been unnecessarily varied, in a way that was completely irrational. Thai Airways currently has around 70 jets. Airbus jets include A320s, A330-300s, and A350-900s, while Boeing jets include 777-200ERs, 777-300ERs, 787-8s, and 787-9s.
This already represents a major fleet simplification, because before the pandemic, the airline also flew Airbus A380s and Boeing 747-400s. And we won’t even go back before that, when the airline also flew A340s. What’s so strange is how few of each aircraft type Thai Airways has flown, in a way that simply doesn’t make sense.
For example, since 2017, Thai Airways has been operating a fleet of exactly two 787-9s. That’s such a small fleet that you can’t possibly utilize it efficiently, and it’s also one of the reasons that the Star Alliance carrier is so notorious for aircraft swaps. Many of us joke that when we deal with an aircraft swap, we’re “getting TGed” (with “TG” being Thai Airways’ two letter code).
I’m happy to see that Thai Airways seems to be focused on one new kind of wide body aircraft with its fleet renewal plans going forward. Now, I think the plan to order up to 80 jets seems… aggressive. Thai Airways currently has 50 wide body jets, and of those, eight are 787s and 17 are A350s, so are unlikely to be retired anytime soon.
Unless a majority of these prospective aircraft orders are options, it sounds like Thai Airways plans to massively grow its long haul fleet. I question how profitably the airline can do that, given the competitive landscape.
Bottom line
While we’ll see how this plays out, Thai Airways is reportedly nearing an order for up to 80 Boeing 787 Dreamliners. It’s nice to see that the airline is intending to simplify its fleet renewal strategy going forward, since fleet consistency is something the company has struggled with.
I just think the number of aircraft potentially being ordered here is extreme, though I suppose it could include a lot of options, deliveries could be spread out over a decade, etc.
What do you make of Thai Airways potentially ordering Boeing 787s?
An order of 80 seems too many for TG. They are correct to focus on one type though. Either A350 or 787. Stick with one.
@Lucky - just came from Bangkok... dozens and dozens of TG planes just parked... as they have been for years. They need to cleared out before any new purchase happens.
Let's hope TG is able to turn the corner. Even with warts and all, when things go right it's one of the nicest experiences in the sky
I recently flew Thai BKK-CDG in BC on their old 777-200ER, in a word, AWFUL. The seat on the window entrance was so small I had to enter sideways to sit. The footwell is too tight to turn over in the Lay-flat—bed position. To add to the poor experience, the crew was terrible and just didn't care. Other than the Dinner and breakfast service - they never came over once to offer me a drink...
I recently flew Thai BKK-CDG in BC on their old 777-200ER, in a word, AWFUL. The seat on the window entrance was so small I had to enter sideways to sit. The footwell is too tight to turn over in the Lay-flat—bed position. To add to the poor experience, the crew was terrible and just didn't care. Other than the Dinner and breakfast service - they never came over once to offer me a drink or snack. Moving to the 787 is a big improvement, but if the crews don't improve their service and attitude, Thai will have a challenge returning to their glory days of a decade+ ago. If I can avoid them, I certainly won't fly them again.
Landed in Bangkok last December with family. It’s a plane spotters dream (albeit very sad). TG has loads of planes just parked all over the airport with fading livery. 747s a380s etc.
Can’t be ideal place to rest them
Thai Airways’ fleet has been unnecessarily varied, in a way that was completely irrational...
"Irrational" you say?
You clearly do not have any idea about how Thailand works. Stop expecting anything to make sense.
JAL completed retirement of last 777-200ER this November and ANA configured them with domestic seats and flies them on domestic high-demand routes.
JAL 767 with recliner seat is only used in short-haul routes such as Haneda-Shanghai Honqiao and in the process of retirement.
ANA 767/787 with cradle seats will not be refurbished in near future so this would be a bigger problem.
I am curious which airplane will replace 767s in Japan - 787 or a350?
Haven’t they been bleeding money? Maybe they’ll get smart and lease some of them instead of buying outright and having to find buyers for their used planes.
Thai Airways must retire its five 777-200ERs with immediate effect. I say this as someone who was struck twice by lightning: first in June 2022 and then in November 2023, when the promised 787-8 (from Chennai to BKK) or A350 (from Bengaluru to BKK) was replaced at the last moment by a 777-200ER. When you’re not going to refurbish it, why disappoint your passengers? Worse, it has a number of newer A330-300s that it isn’t...
Thai Airways must retire its five 777-200ERs with immediate effect. I say this as someone who was struck twice by lightning: first in June 2022 and then in November 2023, when the promised 787-8 (from Chennai to BKK) or A350 (from Bengaluru to BKK) was replaced at the last moment by a 777-200ER. When you’re not going to refurbish it, why disappoint your passengers? Worse, it has a number of newer A330-300s that it isn’t bringing back.
In general, unlike European and US airlines — like AF, BA, OS and KL in Europe, plus UA, AA and previously DL — which refurbish their 1990s/early-2000s-era 777-200ER with new products. Asian airlines’ 777-200ERs are uniformly ancient and horrible. I’m only too glad that we have seen the last of SQ’s, MH’s and VN’s 777-200ERs, but I wish I could say the same for TG, KE or OZ, whose 777-200ERs look exactly the same as when they were delivered. I trust NH and JL are in the process of retiring theirs. Good riddance!
Well, that isn't the exact case except the TG one.
ANA and JAL are retiring their old 777-200s, but those were deployed exclusively in their domestic network in last few wears to begin with, except JAL's refurbished B772s. Their problems are 767s rather than 777s. At least ANA is probably going to their international 767s with old seats (in between recliner and lie-flat seats), but there isn't a clear plan of refurbishing majority of their...
Well, that isn't the exact case except the TG one.
ANA and JAL are retiring their old 777-200s, but those were deployed exclusively in their domestic network in last few wears to begin with, except JAL's refurbished B772s. Their problems are 767s rather than 777s. At least ANA is probably going to their international 767s with old seats (in between recliner and lie-flat seats), but there isn't a clear plan of refurbishing majority of their 787-8s with same exact seats. JAL also has some international 767s with recliner seats in 2-2-2 layout. Not exactly a good riddance.
All of OZ's B772s now feature flat bed seats with direct aisle access for all seats While KAL's current B772s are indeed horrible, they also had refurbished but older B772s before they retired them back in COVID-19 Pandemic times (those refurbished B772s weren't that great either).
I remember reading the announcement that This was buying A350s and thinking it's a new dawn for the airline. The reality is it's still got the same issues as before. But let's hope the new 787 will be a new new dawn!
If this order goes ahead, could some of the a350 frames be used for nonstop BKK-North America again? Air Canada are doing nonstop to Vancouver seasonally with the 787, would their existing a350s be able to do SFO/LAX or would they require some reconfiguration to the ULR model? I often flew NRT-LAX with Thai back in the day, sad to see they no longer serve any North American ports.
Thai lacks a category one license since being downgraded in 2015.
I was just about to say the same thing then read your comment. Given Covid - and the fact that they've been downgraded for almost 10 years at this point - I wonder if Thai has any desire left to re-certify (or whatever the proper term is) and resume flights to the US.
The -ULR model as a standalone, is more or less a defunct concept now.
Starting with Iberia's deliveries a few years ago, all new A359s were given the -ULR's wing twist, modified sharklets, and 280tonne MTOW.
Then more recently, all new A359s were given things the -ULR doesn't have:
lighter-weight doors, modified trailing edges, and 283tonne MTOWs........ and shortly thereafter, Airbus quietly decided to give them the same 165,000 litre fuel capacity that the...
The -ULR model as a standalone, is more or less a defunct concept now.
Starting with Iberia's deliveries a few years ago, all new A359s were given the -ULR's wing twist, modified sharklets, and 280tonne MTOW.
Then more recently, all new A359s were given things the -ULR doesn't have:
lighter-weight doors, modified trailing edges, and 283tonne MTOWs........ and shortly thereafter, Airbus quietly decided to give them the same 165,000 litre fuel capacity that the -ULR and ACJ359 offer. And unlike the -ULR, the forward cargo bay isn't mandatorily sealed.
__________
So yeah, pretty much any post-2019 edition standard A359 could do BKK-LAX/SFO/YVR no problem. TG tends to have a denser configuration (less premium, more coach) than most, but it shouldn't be an issue.
Thanks for such a detailed response. I saw that Thailand failed an FAA audit in 2019 but cannot find any info on current interest in gaining Cat 1 again. I know Thailand is a major leisure destination but surely a nonstop to LAX or SFO would work vs. when they last flew with the much less efficient a345s. Also with United expanding so much transpac I am surprised they aren't giving BKK a try. Thanks again for the reply!
There are reports that Rolls Royce is not being willing to either discount the engines on the A350 - which Thai considered - as well as refused to renegotiate an existing engine maintenance contract which Thai says it needs.
If true, this lends more credence to the delay from Delta in announcing a new order - which could involve major changes in Airbus' relationship with Rolls - possibly including putting GE engines on one...
There are reports that Rolls Royce is not being willing to either discount the engines on the A350 - which Thai considered - as well as refused to renegotiate an existing engine maintenance contract which Thai says it needs.
If true, this lends more credence to the delay from Delta in announcing a new order - which could involve major changes in Airbus' relationship with Rolls - possibly including putting GE engines on one of the two Airbus models which Airbus sells and Delta operates - as well as from Emirates.
The 787 could work well for Thai. It all comes down to commercial terms from both Boeing and GE.
Wow Airbus must not be happy at all with RR they are really hurting Airbus sales.
I'm not so sure. The Trent XWB has proven itself to be an exceptionally reliable engine in service, with none of the expensive faults that dogged the Trent 1000 for the 787.
A Trent XWB costs about $25M, which is peanuts compared to the rest of the airframe.
It was always said about RR automobiles that "if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it". Perhaps the same could be said for Trent XWB aircraft engines as well.
I tend to agree, though Emirates' chief came out and rather publicly dogged RR for the Trent XWB-97's performance in desert climates...
...and specifically blamed them as the reason for no A350-1000 order at the DXB Air Show this year (despite firming EK's A350-900 order, with the Trent XWB-84).
Unlike Al Baker, it's generally not his style to do that in public, rather than private; so something about the way Rolls is handling the negotiations...
I tend to agree, though Emirates' chief came out and rather publicly dogged RR for the Trent XWB-97's performance in desert climates...
...and specifically blamed them as the reason for no A350-1000 order at the DXB Air Show this year (despite firming EK's A350-900 order, with the Trent XWB-84).
Unlike Al Baker, it's generally not his style to do that in public, rather than private; so something about the way Rolls is handling the negotiations must've seriously SERIOUSLY pissed him off.
The "This is the price, pay it or shop elsewhere" IS a thing. However it's a thing for Thai Airways specifically who had been given a discount in the initial negotiations then demanded another discount of, allegedly, more than double the initial discount offered. This was because due to their infamous poor financial instability. The Thai Gov had not turned off the tap as such but had certainly slowed the flow to a trickle for...
The "This is the price, pay it or shop elsewhere" IS a thing. However it's a thing for Thai Airways specifically who had been given a discount in the initial negotiations then demanded another discount of, allegedly, more than double the initial discount offered. This was because due to their infamous poor financial instability. The Thai Gov had not turned off the tap as such but had certainly slowed the flow to a trickle for the foreseeable meaning TG couldn't afford the number of engines for the number of airframes they somehow dreamed up their ability to buy and operate - much like this 80 boeing widebodies they've imagined is at all feasible.
TG tried to call RRs bluff but in assessing what they could do and it's risk-reward analysis TG had overplayed their hand as the data and opinions that came back was that even at current rates the airlines financial position and now a substantial increase in its lack of ability I obtaining the same size of additional capital so easily in the short-medium term left doubt in providing that many units and looked to be a near undefensible risk to take at the unit cost TG now demanded which lead to RR taking an unusually publicly aggressive approach which most feel was a tactical move made in the hope that TG would walk away. Which seems to have worked as intended.
Yes it's a lot of business to lose but not so much if it has such a high potential to risk your own survival.
It's rumoured that RR 'may' have invited some folks from AB to come visit for a catch up and go for a drink down the pub and 'may' have accidentally left some paperwork laying around showing 'some stuff' which might make AB not so annoyed with them BUT that is definitely just water cooler gossip. Seriously. I doubt anyone could ever get that confirmed. Mainly as such careless behaviour 'may' be somewhat of a grey area legally. Allegedly. Again this bits all just speculation.
@Lucky: the seeing 787 mentioned here reminded me that BA has switched its 787 to 777 on the BNA-LHR route from spring onwards, bringing the much awaited Club Suites on that itinerary! We have a ticket for a June flight and the seat map on that flight is now that of the Club Suite's.
Given the popularity of Thailand as a leisure destination, I wonder if a long-haul, low-cost 787 operation like Norse, the old Norwegian, ZIP Air, Air Asia X, Neos etc might work based in Thailand? There's year round demand to Thailand, which is a key advantage over the transatlantic routes Norse operate, and a new airline could offer premium economy for those leisure travelers willing to pay a bit more.
Well technically Thai AirAsia X exists to serve that market, I just feel that it’s not utilizing the potential properly.
Not a 787 fan, but that livery looks sooooo sexy on that airframe